Over/Under 18s in classes

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   Hi looks like I am the second person to post here 
Some time ago I seem to remember reading in the child protection policy document (draft) that children under the age of 14 should not practice with adults on the mat.  This had been the practice in clubs I have trained at in the past.  However, I can find no reference to this in the current document.
Although I run an over 18 class only at the moment I would like to give young adults the chance to train and I do not have the time to run a separate childrens class.
Please could you clarify the exact position here is it all over 18 or all under 18 with no overlap, or is there some other policy.

Any help greatfully appreciated

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awase Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 02 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote awase Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Over/Under 18s in classes Posted: 02 Jul 2008 at 7:24pm
	Hi looks like I am the second person to post here Some time ago I seem to remember reading in the child protection policy document (draft) that children under the age of 14 should not practice with adults on the mat. This had been the practice in clubs I have trained at in the past. However, I can find no reference to this in the current document. Although I run an over 18 class only at the moment I would like to give young adults the chance to train and I do not have the time to run a separate childrens class. Please could you clarify the exact position here is it all over 18 or all under 18 with no overlap, or is there some other policy. Any help greatfully appreciated

Sue Ward Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group CP Moderator Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sue Ward Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 Jul 2008 at 9:13am
	Hi - I think the confusion here is probably caused by the crossover between coaching 'best practice' and safeguarding standards. There is nothing in the current Safeguarding policy which 'prohibits' adults and children training together. But of course a duty of care and appropriate risk assessments must be done. Section 5.1.1 says that access to aikido for under18s should be appropriate to their age, physcial development and ability. I would suggest that it might not be appropriate to have a slightly built 7 year old training with a 6 foot well built 35 year old! In my own club we do run separate classes for adults and children - but I fully understand that this may not be practical for all clubs. So, use your coaching knowledge to ensure that appropriate groups train together from within the main body of the class. Conduct (and write down) a risk assessment - construct appropriate lesson plans which will address any safeguarding issues which your risk assessment may highlight. Remember that the Policy Good Practice section states that children should not be subjected to pain compliance or against the joint techniques. And of course anyone with (regular) direct supervisory contact with children must have a BAB CRB check. (If you need more info on this then post again and I will reply). Hope this info is helful Regards Sue

awase Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 02 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote awase Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2008 at 5:58pm
	Hi Sue, Many thanks for the prompt reply. I was seeking clarification as I would like to be able to teach teenagers (14 upwards or thereabouts) within what is currently only an 18 plus class. I understand there are a number of actions I need to complete in order to do this in addition to the lesson plans and risks assessments, namely: Attend a coaching young people course. Obtain CRB clearance through BAB (although I already hold one through my work as a youth leader). Establish a CPO for my club Greatful if you could let me know if I have missed anything. The only other issue I currently have is that the CPO position for my organisation is currently vacant - does this have an affect on the situation? Sorry to ask so many question, but I would like to expand my club membership and I feel that young people are the future of aikido. Any help appreciated. Regards

Sue Ward Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group CP Moderator Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sue Ward Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 Jul 2008 at 6:20pm
	Absolutely no problem to ask questions! I am just so pleased that you are taking this time and 'trouble' to ensure that under 18s are properly catered for in your club. Hi again 1. As far as I am aware there is no mandatory BAB requirement for you to attend the coaching young people workshop. That's not to say it wouldn't be a great benefit though! I'd also recommend the sport coach UK Safeguarding and Protecting Children workshop. This is widely available and often subsidised by local councils etc. It is also recongised across all sports - so it could go with you into other coaching or related activities. 2. Yep - you will need a BAB CRB check done. I do understand it's a pain to have to have multiple checks but unfortunately there is no facility for us to offer portability of other checks into the BAB setting. There are lots of reasons for this - but I won't bore you with them here! 3. Strictly speaking, the club will have a CWO (rather than CPO). The Club Welfare Officer should ideally be someone independent (i.e. preferably not a coach) - and clearly someone who is child friendly and ideally - if possible - with some relevant background. In due course the BAB will be looking to offer induction training for all CWOs - but this is in the planning stages at the moment. Thw CSWO will also need a CRB check as part of their recruitment process. We are currently working on a standard BAB recruitment pack - but this might take a while (there is soooo much to do and not enough time!). You will also need to ensure that your CWO is familiar with the BAB CP Policy and all the related procedures. If poss try and get them on the scUK course too. If you need any templates for recruitment paperwork let me know and I can email these to you. 4. What is your Assn? I know of one that is midway between CPOs - but it would be helpful to confirm this with me. You can email me direct (sueward@tiscali.co.uk) if you have any info or questions you would rather not post here. But it is very useful I think to let others have sight of these questions as I am sure many people are perhaps thinking of them just like you! .... Each Assn should have a CPO - but as an interim measure you or your CWO could raise queries or concerns direct with me or Barbara Barrett our new Independent Safeguarding Officer. You can find lots of other info and guidance in the CP Policy on things like late collection, changing, coaching:student ratios etc. Also check out the CPSU (child protection in sport unit) web site. they have loads of good info too (google the name and you'll find them easily). One other thing that might be helpful .. consider how you will ensure that children leave your class safely and with the appropriate person. We have found in our club that it can be a nightmare with 20 + kids rushing off the mat at the same time. So think about how you will ensure they are going off with a parent or carer - or have they been given permission to walk home alone (and how can you record this). We found that often kids can just race out of the dojo -- so now we always post a responsible person at the door to ensure no child leaves alone without us knowing that this is OK. We can then also check who is meeting them - and that that person has the authority to take the child away. I realise though that with 14 year olds they will maybe leave on their own or with friends - but again you should check with the parents that this is OK (in my club they sign a form to agree to this). Please don't hesitate to get back to me if you think of any other queries. And all the best with your classes! Regards Sue

Jamieg Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Location: Northampton Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jamieg Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 10:28pm
	An interesting discussion! One of the points of training in a Martial Art such as Aikido is to learn to defend yourself - particularly if you are training in a traditional or "street" manner (or combination). Surely one of the major advantages of Aikido is that a slightly built 7 year old can potentially defend themselves against a well built 35 year old? I understand the issues, problems and practicality of training adults with children, but surely we would be doing the children a disservice if we did not give them the opportunity to train with adults? Ok practically you will not expect a child to perform a Koshinage on someone of my size (17(ish!)stone) but to learn the principles of moving off line etc, there is no reason to limit who trains with who is there? After all I have been thrown around by men, women and children who are much smaller than me. "Best practice" - I wonder how self defence training "best practice" and coaching "best practice" can resolve this issue? Bear in mind that a number of times I have been flored by my 6 year old son with a accidental, unseen groin shot!
	I love to fly!

Sue Ward Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group CP Moderator Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sue Ward Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 Aug 2008 at 2:26pm
	Hi Jamieg Thanks for the comments - and you raise some interesting points. Perhaps one could argue that a child could be tori only when training with an adult. But even so, I have heard of instances where an adult was 'thrown' by a child - but unfortunately the adult was so focused on his young partner he failed to see that he was about to land on another youngster (stepping onto this child's arm and breaking it). The subsequent court case found the adult liable and the damages were around �6000 (according to the person who told me this). My personal feeling is that there are enough 'unknowns' when adults train together. But adults can make their own decisions and their own risk assessments. Children by definition cannot. So it's not just about size and age - it's about our duty of care. Again - my personal opinion is that children simply cannot practice 'true' aikido as pain compliance and againt the joint locks are not allowed under the current safeguarding policy. So if we accept that they cannot practice in the same way as adults my view is that their sessions should be tailored to suit what they can do. Certainly with younger children my view is that the session should be planned specifically for them. They have different learning curves - different physical abilities etc. Children are not in my view 'mini adults'. And of course none of the above addresses the uncomfortable issue of allowing adults with bad intentions towards children to have direct, close physical contact with them. We do not and cannot run the same risk assessment checks on those who simply train on the mat (i.e. who are not instructors). We all like to think that the nature of aikido offers some built in risk assessment 'positives' as regards becoming an instructor (e.g. the many years it takes to achieve a grade where one could instruct). But what about the new student. You know nothing about him or her. They step onto the mat for the first time - maybe just a free session - and immediately they could have 1:1 direct access to children. They could start to form relationships perhaps quite easily. All in all I think it would be much much harder for an instructor to devise a safe and effective integrated adult/junior session than it would be to run separate classes (albeit on the same mat if necessary). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. And I would also be happy to a view from our ISO if that would help. Sue

Jamieg Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Location: Northampton Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jamieg Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Aug 2008 at 10:14am
	Hi Sue. Yes I see your point - clearly there are some inbuilt dangers to Aikido. I absolutely agree that no-one under 18 should be subjected to pain compliance techniques, and similarly it is very difficult for a child to execute Nikkyo etc on an adult. Within our club there are some specific and some incidental checks and balances to ensure the safety of children training. We do tend to allow children to train with adults, however no-one trains with the same person time after time, they all move on to a new partner every time they get up to practice. In addition, all our senior grades keep an eye on the children training, our CPO and Sensei discuss any potential issues before, during and after classes, and we do often ensure the children train slightly aside from the main group. Yes we need to protect our children - having two boys of my own, I know that they can over reach their own abilities and therefore any club with children in should have an instructor who is experienced in working with children. However, if I take my boys to train in a martial art and they get injured through an accident, I will not sue the person/s involved in that accident unless it was malicious (we have all been on the receiving end of over enthusiastic techniques), and I think this is where a major problem lies, why do people always feel the need to blame other people? In the example you give it appears that it was an accident plain and simple - if that is the case why on earth would anyone be entitled to compensation? Part of what we are discussing us the protection of our children from sexual and other predators and I would do whatever it takes to ensure this. The other part seems to be about wrapping them up in cotton wool, and I suggest we should consider what they are actually doing (studying a Martial Art)? That doesn't mean I advocate causing pain/ injury but I do suggest that there should be some understanding of what they are actually aiming to do when training!
	I love to fly!

Sue Ward Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Moderator Group CP Moderator Joined: 03 Jul 2008 Status: Offline Points: 14	Post Options Post Reply Quote Sue Ward Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 20 Aug 2008 at 4:03pm
	Hi - I am no legal expert - so can't really say why a claim was pursued and was successful. But often insurance is there to cover things that simply are accidents(anything done with malicious intent cannot by definition be accidental?). I accept that circumstances may be different for children (i.e, no loss was suffered or incurred). However presumably the 'pain and suffering' aspect was invoked just as for an adult. I guess in a court of law (civil as well as criminal) the excuse of " sorry I didn't mean to do it - it was an accident" is not an acceptable defence! I agree that today's society can seem geared towards a blame and compensation culture. But that's what we are part of and it's up to us to ensure we protect ourselves and others against the potentially unpleasant outcome if such claims are made. Having said that we must always remember that the welfare of children is paramount - so if some restrictions or guidelines seem 'excessive' - but they do ensure the best possible safeguarding provision - then I would have to voice my support for them. As a parent presumably you are quite entitled to allow your children to partake in activities that might have more element of risk. You might be very happy for your children to climb trees - or race around - or play fight --- and these activities might result in injuries, knocks, bumps that you and your child are quite happy about. But there is a huge difference between what you personally 'sanction' outside of the dojo for your child - and what we as instructors should sanction on behalf of other parents (and children of course!) inside the dojo. It's a really interesting topic for discussion and maybe we might get some other views posted. I can ensure that this thread is highlighted for our ISO to take to the Safeguarding workshop on the 6th Sept. all best sue

Jamieg Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 11 Aug 2008 Location: Northampton Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jamieg Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 Aug 2008 at 10:13pm
	Sue Yes you are right - we do have to work within the society we live in. I would not want to see my children hurt, and to be honest am probably a bit over protective, but I do think people need to consider what they are taking part in. As you say I think we need more opinions and discussions, I hope that Sensei Mclean from Coventry will contribute to this discussion, since I have huge respect for the way he teaches his childrens classes, and regularly take my boys to train with him. I'd be interested to hear other peoples thoughts as well!
	I love to fly!

Andy McLean Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Location: coventry Status: Offline Points: 0	Post Options Post Reply Quote Andy McLean Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 28 Aug 2008 at 10:04pm
	Hi Jamie, Sue, Awase Some really important and interesting points raised where I feel there isn't 'one' magic answer to all our questions and concerns. I must admit I do see two separate areas for concern. Both include children's safety and welfare. Main issue is from the predatory adult looking to start an "inappropriate" relationship with a minor. The other is safe Aikido training. I do have some juniors on the mat with my adult class. I allow this from the age of 11 (Secondary school age where SD is now a serious and very really issue) IF they have shown the mental maturity and physical ability. However I never allow any pain compliance techniques to be applied to them either by an adult or another junior. I do allow though them to learn these techniques as I feel they are integral to Aikido. They are also a vital aspect of a practical Self Defense System. They apply them to an (appropriate) adult student in the class. My daughter from the age of 10 could not physically practice at her level on the junior class. She had to consistently hold back her techniques which was detrimental to her development. While an adult also practicing at full power was also not possible my senior students were able to to train with her at a level good for her. A lot of the children come to my classes for self defence, most attackers will be bigger and stronger so I personally feel they need to have the opportunity to train with ukes who are bigger and stronger. This allows for the chance to apply their techniques with greater power and to find what works for them and what doesn't. I now teach a range and techniques for use against larger opponents actually taught to me by my daughter (she's still only 15!!) that she has developed and adapted to suit her against these ukes. This would not have been possible if she had stayed in a junior only class. It is ultimately down to the instructor whether they allow juniors on to an over 18 mat. With proper safeguards, vigilance, and awareness this can work well. My thoughts anyway. Hope to see you soon J. Class as usual Sat :-) Regards Andy ps Hope your shirt was ok Sue!! I had to gues the size :-)
	Aikido is constantly changing and evolving - so must we!!!! http://www.andys-style.co.uk